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Contrariwise, 106 LSA car engines are the best choice for people seeking energy-efficient cars with moderate engine power. For large port heads like the CNC 044's which can use the extra lift 1.4's make a noticable difference. Lobe Separation Angle, or LSA, is the number of degrees that separate the peak lift points of the cam's intake and exhaust lobes. Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated! A few other major and, Read More Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When AcceleratingContinue, Your email address will not be published. Well get out of that stocker and build a hipo motor for your VW. So, sit tight back and explore. OK, what is hydraboost, and how do you like how the cam performs??? i have a 4 bolt 351C, stock bore, 10.5 cr with 351C Boss heads ,boss crank and rods. . It made 472.4 lb-ft at peak, a 21.5lb-ft disparity from the 101 cam. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong. Also If you go with 112 lobe centers, you create less valve overlap which will increase your compretion. The intake lobe centerline is measured in crankshaft degrees. But for small-block Chevys (like the LS applications in this story), the LSA is ground into the cam. Thats just the way the customer wants to roll, and engine builders find its easy to deliver such a powerplant. 112 vs 114 lobe centers You cannot tell the differance in the two . It is the angle that separates the intake and exhaust lobe for a particular cylinder, and is measured in camshaft degrees. Lucky for us, Brian Tooley Racing stepped up with a dual spring package that allowed us to safely run our 0.624-lift cam. Post Tests have shown that, for a given cam profile, a tighter (smaller) lobe center will produce more average horsepower and a quicker revving engine. It is possible to advance and retard the timing events, but the distance between the centerline of the lobes will remain constant. Tests have shown that, for a given cam profile, a tighter (smaller) lobe center will produce more average horsepower and a quicker revving engine. (2002) et rappel sur une carte hors texte. Compression willl be 9.75:1. Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated! also,, wider will produce a wider and more flat torque curve that doesn't fall off as abruptly up top rpms. Lobe Separation Angle "LSA "Jump to Latest Follow 1 - 17 of 17 Posts . 08 Additional components used to build the stroker included a set of Comp hydraulic roller lifters, ARP head studs, and a new oil pump. LSA is the distance from the centerline of the intake lobe to the centerline of exhaust lobe. These numbers can vary a few inches one way or the other, depending on several other aftermarket factors and your individual engine specifications, so you may want to check your vacuum once the cam is installed. by SStrokerAce Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:36 pm, Post Its also critical that valve overlap is kept to a minimum as the induction system can create a suction that pulls water into the motor, adds Bolander. by mrsmythe Mon May 12, 2003 11:15 am, Post This causes the engine's street manners and tuning to become fickle. I will be running an Edelbrock Performer RPM, with a Quick Fuel 750cfm with a screw adjustable vacuum secondary; it's called the Pro-vac. The final cam was tighter still, with a 108-degree LSA. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. ( 2 ) Estimated Ship Date: Feb 23, 2023 (if ordered today) Drop Ship. It depends on the combination of engine size, head flow and head flow balance, as well as a big one, exhaust flow capabilities. kinda off topic.. but while we're on the topic of cams, duration,lift,ect has anybody heard of using high compreshion (13:1) on pump gas, by useing alot of duration? A 112-114 degree lobe center will have a better idle and produce more vacuum with less overlap. Things like idle vacuum, fuel economy, and tuning all factor into picking the right cam. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. If a street car has smaller lift and duration numbers, they might run 112 or 114. Part Number: HRS-CL120325-08. This comparison highlights that the 106 LSA is a good performer in a few mechanical aspects than the 110 LSA. Come join the discussion about popular models such as the Mustang, Galaxie, Falcon, Fairlane, Torino, Shelby and many more! The reduced rate of the EGR effect lowers oxygen circulation in the engines combustion chamber. by randy331 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:00 pm, Post Camshafts with a substantial overlapping tendency should not be used in vehicles driven on public streets. 15,215. ohio. That was all, and we have already reached the concluding point. = Moderately Wide 110-108 Deg. I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. Read More Chevy 350 Ignition Coil Location And Everything About ThemContinue, What causes a car to bog down when accelerating? (ICL + ECL) / 2 = LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE (LSA) LSA is a RESULT of the PROPER events. "When you've properly tuned a performance motor, you create high- and low-pressure waves in the intake and exhaust that help cylinder filling," said Comp Cams' Billy Godbold. 1966 Toyota Landcruiserunder construction. pump gas, no additive's as well, runs good, i will put the highest octane in, which is 93.. Walter Noah is a process engineer who has a knack for resolving even the toughest technical issue. A cam with a tighter LSA will require a looser torque converter, may not be able to run vacuum-assisted brakes, and doesn't play nice with fuel injection. After spending 8 years in plant production engineering, Noah wanted to join Engine Addiction as a key member of all cars specific guides, reviews, repairs, suggestions, and more. On the cranking compression test, Brul recorded 175 psi, a 10-psi drop from the outgoing 101 cam. On the surface, the camshaft's job is simpleopen and close the valvesbut beyond that topical description, it's one of the most mysterious and misunderstood engine components. It may not display this or other websites correctly. Let's just talk lobe sep angle. I am pretty sure, right now, you find yourself in the middle of the rising debate of 106 vs 110 lobe separation angle. It is an important note you must keep; due to the lobe separation angle, there creates an overlapping of intake valve opening time and exhaust valve closing time and vice versa. It creates an unsteady manifold vacuum condition that, on a fuel-injected engine, confuses manifold air pressure (MAP) sensors, making it hard for them to regulate fueling. NOTE: Classic Inlines stocks the above profiles in 108, 110, and 112 lobe centers. 108 vs 112 lobe seperation. One segment that truly benefits from a wider LSA is the marine marine market. dur. My duration will be about 230 degrees. Here are the basics: higher lift values open the valves to increase airflow and longer duration keeps the valves open longer. camshaft is a Cranecams F238. If that accessory still does not assist the cam in producing enough vacuum, then as a last resort you can use a vacuum pump. It will also give you a smoother idle and probably even better gas mileage. My engine shop builds all kinds of hot rod motors, and they told me that because I am running a 4 speed manual, I will better be able to take advantage of the 108 LSA. The valve covers, valvetrain, intake manifold, harmonic balancer, front cover, timing set, and cam were yanked. It is the average centerline between both lobes and expressed in degrees ranging from 95 on the extremely narrow/tight side to upward of 120 on the wide end. How To Properly Replace Ignition Coils, Chevy 350 Ignition Coil Location And Everything About Them, Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When Accelerating. in some cases,, the average torque can equal out. When choosing a cam, power gains shouldn't be the only consideration. Cylinder-head flow and LSA are directly related: as a rule of thumb, the better the head flows, the wider the LSA can be. I'm surprized at these questions as well as some of the replies. " A 232 deg duration cam with a 108 deg LCA will have the same valve overlap as a 236 deg cam with a 110 deg LCA and idle will probably be very similar. The Wastegate works by releasing the pressure built inside, Read More What Are The Wastegate Stuck Open Symptoms?Continue, Oops! The piston and cylinder damage possibility is pretty low at 110 LSA. Average power was also down, but the engine pulled ahead of the 101 cam at 5,400 rpm, picking up 6.5 hp at peak. With minimal overlap and a steady manifold vacuum signal, they work great with fuel-injection systems and are the norm on modern pushrod engines, such as the LS and Gen III hemi. Pontiac 326 Vs Chevy 327 Differences & Similarities. Usually, an old gas tank is responsible for a vehicle bogging down during acceleration. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. = Extremely Tight . What Is the SBC Header Bolt Torque? FWIW. So, choose the perfect lobe separation angle for your engine, complying with the requirements of your needs. The Crane has a smoother idle, broader power band, and . In terms of horsepower, the disparity between all three cams was only 6.5 hp, with a scant 100 rpm separating the peaks. I have used some cut on a 110 that worked well too, but they never sounded as good as the tight ones. so the power will come on a litter sooner with the 114, and fall off a little sooner? A cams Lobe center angle equals intake centerline plus exhaust . The same is true for intake valve closing. JavaScript is disabled. 110 for sure. by lazaris Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:18 pm, Post The lobe separation angle is the angle between the two camshaft lobes that act on the valves. Despite no changes in lift or duration, this cam sounded much more aggressive than the other two with wider LSAs. As boost increases, the air will be forced through the cylinder, vs. being trapped in the cylinder. 108* or narrower lobe separation angle (LSA) is "Narrow" and 114* or wider (up to 117* or 120* for stock cams) is "Wide" , with 110 to 112* being the "normal" hot-rod cam. 2.1.2.4.2 Side-lobe suppression shall be provided in accordance with the provisions of 3.1.2.1.5.2.1 on all Mode S-only all-call interrogations. Every spec is a road map to what the valves are doing, the most common of which are lift, duration, and lobe-separation angle (LSA)the latter needing the most explanation. The tighter the lobe separation angle, the peakier the power curve will be, confirms Bolander. As you can see in the graph, the 101 LSA cam actually had the highest cranking compression of the batch: 185 psi. Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. by bigjoe1 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:48 pm, Post Professionally ported & polished iron 4V head with titanium intake valves, stainless exhaust, titanium retainers & keepers & dual springs. Our content is merely suggestive, not intended to use without proper safety precautions and advice. Leave the 108 for solid rollers turning big rpms. by Kdub Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:05 pm, Post Split duration/lift only helps when your intake/exhaust ratio is low on the exhaust side. 110 LSA: On the contrary, 110LSA has a higher piston-to-valve clearance rate. Some prefer a narrow powerband, and some prefer the broader one. by ANT Mon May 12, 2003 1:47 pm, Post How To Properly Replace Ignition CoilsContinue. 110 degrees on the lobe separation angles. 238/248 duration, 300/310 adv. For your convenience, I am providing a comparison table to give you an overall idea about the comparison. That was just a glimpse of the information you were looking for. Like choosing a cam in general, the key to eliminating separation anxiety is to find the proper balance of driveability and performance. by jim martin Mon May 12, 2003 7:10 pm, Post It will sound lovely I'm sure. by ANT Thu May 15, 2003 6:44 pm, Copyright 2022, S&S Motorsports LLC, All Rights Reserved - Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. 11 Doing LS cam swaps on the engine dyno is a breeze, each taking less than 1 hour. The tighter the lobe center, the lower the RPM range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the RPM range. 12 In terms of power production, the stroker LS3 performed best with the tightest lobe separation angle. On a torque graph it tends to resemble a triangular shape.. Supercharged and nitrous race engines typically benefit from a wider LSA because they dont require as much overlap for exhaust scavenging as does the naturally aspirated engine, continues Bolander. (You can find an instructional video of how to do just that on our Clay Smith Cams YouTube Channel;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57gfBu8uc6k&t=1s ). Depending on the engine combination, the opposite results can occur. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. I have 108 for LSA and my headlights take awhile to go up when the car is idling. Another related thought to consider when selecting a cam is inches of vacuum for your engine application when deciding upon a Lobe Center. Getting back to the sound of an engine, its no secret that a raucous, lumpy idle is often preferred by street cruisers, regardless of the ill manners and inefficiency of such an engine setup. This recommendation is only if you shift at no more than 7000. Most street cams are ground 4 degrees advanced which boosts bottom end, throttle response, vacume, mpg driveability etc. 106 LSA: There is an increasing chance of engine knock at the 106 lobe separation angle. Some of the programs like engine analyzer pro and dynomation seem to like some of the wider lsa's.Thanks again JOE. Hey guys, can anyone tell me how rough of a idle a cam would be with a 108 lobe separation? Tests 2 and 3 meant dissecting the motor on the dyno to get the old cam out. 106 LSA: You can see an increasing EGR effect at 106 LSA. Selecting a camshaft for a given engines purpose usually involves a compromise between low- or high-end power options, and the lobe separation angle (LSA) is one of those factors where engine builders have to make a choice between those priorities. The center of those 2 events is the LOBE CENTERLINE (ECL). Frankly cams with a 108-114 lca unless in the perfect combo you won't usually see more than 15hp and you won't really feel the difference except for either a peaky or broad power band. So, the 110 LSA engine is a suitable choice for people prone to be the fan of a powerful engine with mighty acceleration power. 110 LSA: The 110 LSA shows up mechanically advantageous in mechanical aspects like higher RPM, lower engine knock, moderate cylinder pressure, improved idle vacuum, and higher piston-to-valve clearance. When degreeing in the camshaft, you are making sure the intake centerline is precisely where the cam is intended to be. Typically, narrower lobe separation develops peak torque at lower rpm and widening the separation tends to build peak torque higher in the rpm range. Retarding the camshaft (a higher intake lobe centerline number 108 vs. 104) will generally start the power band later in the RPM range and decrease the cylinder pressure. That lopey idle that is universally loved, and part of the allure of a tight LSA cam, is actually misfire caused from a combination of exhaust dilution in the intake manifold and poor cylinder filling at idle. The 30-30 Duntov is on the high end of the duration recommendation. In general, a stock replacement camshaft with duration of less than 200 degrees will have a lobe separation angle of more than 114 degrees. that is why people running 112 or 114 lobe centres retard the cam ,that way the exhaust event is back were it was before .this helps in exhaust valve tempatures--anyway today i talked too barry who is the owner of shadbolt cams and we talked about cam lobe centres -he considers 108 centre quite narrow and for a very narrow power band operation ,with a 112 he figures with the carbs with straight & even runs at the valves there should be no noticable loss of low end power, a 112 lobe would be a great choice for a great street strip motor -better lower torque followed with a flatter rising torque curve as well as rpm range extended 500-700 rpm -. This has been my long time understanding! You must log in or register to reply here. As lobe seperation spreads does the powerband. What Are The Wastegate Stuck Open Symptoms? The 402-inch LS2/LS3 hybrid stroker started out with an LS2 aluminum block. Torsion Beam Vs Multi Link: Who Wins the Battle? For example, an oval-track small-block that needs to motivate the car off the turns quickly might have a narrow LSA of around 106 degrees, resulting in more overlap. It a 355. thanks in advance. you cannot just take a random change in a lobe separation angle and say 1 is better than the other. 68 Mustang, 306, AFR 185\'s, CI cam, FPA\'s, Bigs 650 DP, T5Z, 9" w/4.33's. A wider lobe separation angle can often provide more power, but it can also lead to more wear on the engine. But, the internal processings are much more complicated. 2023 Power Automedia. The intake air control valve (IAC), which regulates idle speed, also has to work overtime and often attempts to "catch" the idle, but usually shoots high or low. A narrower lobe separation angle can provide less power but can also lead to less wear. Increasing the EGR effect has a good side in that it reduces the amount of oxygen in the combustion chamber. by xstfudonniex Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:24 pm, Post Knife edged & profiled 4MA Cleveland crank weighing 50lbs. But nothing comes without a cost, and idle vacuum suffers as LSA shrinks. The article was called "Separation of Power" and they tested 5 cams ranged from 106 to 114 LSA. When boost or nitrous are introduced, and engine builders contemplate choices between single-, dual- or reverse-pattern camshafts then the discussion gets muchmore technical. Pinning the tail on the perfect cam can certainly be a difficult task. Now lets move to the exhaust. The lumpy-idling 101 LSA cam churned out an average of 484.0 hp at 6,100 rpm with 493.9 lb-ft of torque at 4,400 rpm. 10 Tuning the timing curve and fuel from the 42-lb/hr FAST injectors was handled by this Holley HP management system. If two cams are identical with the exception of lobe separation angle (we'll say 108 and 114) the cam with 114LSA will make more low end power than the 108LSA cam? You are using an out of date browser. not exactly true, Ive seen custom grinds that are on 108 lca, smooth idle, high vacuum an even able to run efi, usually on an off the shelf cam it is true. And better gas mileage. Some of the confusion on this subject comes from what the meaning of "bottom" and "top" is to the speaker, I suppose. or just enough to keep the neighbors pissed? Say you have a cam ground on a 115 and the other on a 110. To overcome this inherent problem in wide LSA camshafts, you simply need a higher-flowing intake port. A 110-degree lobe separation angle means that the peak opening points of the intake and exhaust lobes are 110 degrees apart. by ANT Tue May 13, 2003 1:08 pm, Post LSA helps determine the cam's behavior; you can take a given set of lift and duration figures, change the LSA, and get cams with vastly different characteristics. All rights reserved. This is ground into the cam and can't be changed without changing cams. General topics - 76 LA built, CA car with m20. It really comes down to the application. On larger displacement units 116 to 118 degrees of separation are common. Before we all start suffering from separation anxiety, we need to understand what lobe separation angle actually is and then how it affects your engine. Lobe seperation cant be seperated from duration,the 2 are connected.the old duntov cam had a lot less duration than many new cams so the valve overlap was not extreme and the engine ran with a gentle lope.Increase the duration by 20* and this cam would shake a 283 out of the car at idle,but then increase the lobe seperation by 4* and the motor will have a gentle lope again. A tighter LSA is always going to have more overlap, which allows the exhaust and intake systemif they're tuned wellto work together.". The idle quality was better with the 112-degree LSA but not as good as the wider 120-degree cam.The ultra-wide 120-degree LSA lost low-speed power and never recovered, but know that this wide LSA is often beneficial on positive displacement, supercharged applications. by flat4racer17 Tue May 13, 2003 9:12 pm, Post I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. Lower cylinder pressure is advantageous for your engine. 110 LSA: On the contrary, if you look at the powerband at 110 LSA, the powerband is comparatively broader. As usual, Marc (aka Master) is correct. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. I normally run a 106 to a 108 because I like the "hit" a tighter LC cam has when it come up on the came. Comp cam hydraulic roller lifters. Also present during testing was a set of 1 7/8-inch Kooks headers, Comp hydraulic roller lifters, and F-body oil pan.